This is a lovely conversation, with some interesting thoughts on the recent progress of uv.

For all the concerns raised, I’d be happy if I could see a plan to merge the available performance wins (non just “it’s Rust” ones) back upstream into pip.

Bring on the money, but plan for when it goes away, is more or less my take. We still need native community owned tooling on that day.

From: @jacob
social.jacobian.org/@jacob@jac

@carlton @jacob Yes to bringing back some lessons learned to pip, but

if Astral implodes tomorrow, doesn't uv continue working? Couldn't the community just fork it and continue its development, arguably at a slower pace?

Colour me sceptical that the community at a whole is far enough onto the Rust bandwagon that it would continue to be maintained as a fork.

I'd like to see the Python native tooling advanced, and then there's a case for (maybe) sprinkles of Rust.

There's a separate 'single binary' argument that I'm not unsympathetic to, but self bootstrapping pure Python installations have themselves (too) come on.

I would be more worried about CPython dependence on corporate sponsorship than uv at this point to be honest. Who's funding the free-threaded version? The advancements in typing?

@astrojuanlu @carlton Those aren't single-stakeholder things though? Like, there's an entire foundation and as well as checks & balances around the actual work to ensure that things are aligned with the broader needs on them.

Juan Luis

@astrojuanlu@social.juanlu.space

@pradyunsg @carlton So corporate sponsorship is good as long as there's a big enough body of unpaid volunteers that has the keys?

I know I sound obnoxious but honestly, I don't know what the demands are. It's permissive open source. It has no CLA. Development happens in the open. They implement existing standards. They participate in discussions in, I think, quite a healthy way. They made Python more enjoyable for everyone.

September 7, 2024 at 5:20:00 PM

@pradyunsg @carlton Also, about regular folks, what are they (we?) supposed to do?

Acknowledge past work? I don't think anybody is denying that. Or should they take Python history lessons?

Donate to the PSF? Well, that doesn't go to PyPA tools other than warehouse, does it?

Use subpar tools because "community"? How does that help said tools?

I'm very confused.

@astrojuanlu @pradyunsg I feel like you’ve grabbed more than I said. 🤔

Some folks in the thread raised some, it seems, valid concerns. I said I’d be happy with most of those if we could see the improvements passed up to pip, where feasible.

That was it.

I’m not really here for a massive fight about something I didn’t say, if that’s OK. Ta. 🙏

@carlton @pradyunsg Yes indeed I'm projecting a whole debate onto this thread. Apologies 🙏

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